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 Warlords of Draenor

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Dorus
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PostSubject: Warlords of Draenor   Fri Nov 08 2013, 23:28

Soooo, I was wondering what people thought of this announcement. There's a lot of info on mmo and the website www.warlordsofdraenor.com. Thoughts, things you like/dislike etc.?

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PostSubject: Re: Warlords of Draenor   Fri Nov 08 2013, 23:49

Im no the fence on the new raiding 'tiers':

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PostSubject: Re: Warlords of Draenor   Sat Nov 09 2013, 00:52

I had a convo with Llama about that yesterday. I don't think the mythic size of 20 people will stick. The majority of raiding guilds are ten man, and a lot of those raid heroic. It would be too problematic for them to just get another 10 people.
I'd much rather have them do away with lfr and keep flex, but the difficulties are ok I guess.
20 people though, I don't see that happening.

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PostSubject: Re: Warlords of Draenor   Sat Nov 09 2013, 03:19

wad de foq
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PostSubject: Re: Warlords of Draenor   Sat Nov 09 2013, 10:32

If mystic was 15 people instead of 20 then it might be a little more popular but even saying that gathering 15 people for a raid is still asking for a strong raid team. Not really looked into the new Exp much to be honest,

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PostSubject: Re: Warlords of Draenor   Sat Nov 09 2013, 12:53

Dorus wrote:
I had a convo with Llama about that yesterday. I don't think the mythic size of 20 people will stick. The majority of raiding guilds are ten man, and a lot of those raid heroic. It would be too problematic for them to just get another 10 people.
I'd much rather have them do away with lfr and keep flex, but the difficulties are ok I guess.
20 people though, I don't see that happening.
The difficulties are the same as today, just a renaming:

Quote :
The new Normal will be as difficult as Flex is today.
The new Heroic will be as difficult as Normal is today.
The new Mythic will be as difficult was Heroic is today.
If they do stick to the 20man size, that will be the end of ~50% of 10 man raiding guilds, seems very harsh.
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PostSubject: Re: Warlords of Draenor   Sat Nov 09 2013, 22:54

Yeah I know they are. But I find the lfr 'difficulty level' redundant. I don't mean in name. The matchmaking system that gets you with 24 randomers and the no-skill part of it. Flex is easy, but at least there is some challenge.

And indeed that's exactly why I doubt they'll stick with it. It would make raiding very inaccessible at that level.

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PostSubject: Re: Warlords of Draenor   Sun Nov 10 2013, 07:43

20 man raiding would probably destroy a lot of 10 man guilds yes. However, the playerbase interested in heroic raiding will remain roughly the same unless they have a computer that just can't handle more than 10 players or if they have an unnatural gripe against 10+ raiding. So what's gonna happen is that existing connections will get destroyed for a big part, but new connections will be made to tailor to this new raid format. I really don't see how this is that much different from what they did when they changed the raiding scheme in TBC and Cataclysm. In hindsight they probably never should've implemented 10 man raiding. It sucks that they give and then take away, but in the long run it should make raiding a better experience as a whole. It also goes for heroic only, all other difficulties will be flexible.
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PostSubject: Re: Warlords of Draenor   Sun Nov 10 2013, 21:59

40 --> 25 to make raids more accessible.
25 --> 25/10 to make raids more accessible.
10 giving same loot as 25 to put em on equal footing.

10 --> 20 to.. make raids 'less' accessible? It's a fact that if you need more people/a bigger group it gets much harder to organise and becomes a lot less accessible. Cutting five people is easy (from a management pov, not necessarily from a social), recruiting ten is a nightmare. Guild mergers are well known for being disasters 9/10 times.
WotLK saw a massive increase in raiders. There's a ton more heroic raiders now than there were in TBC (though there are less subs atm). What, the playerbase got suddenly more interested? No, it became easier to find a guild/make a raid team.
They want to do this to end the 10/25 debate, but the costs will defo outweigh the benefits here.
Take Paragon f.ex.: they went 10 man simply cause it was too much trouble to keep recruiting people for a seriously hardcore 25 man team. Logistically it's just so much harder.

Still I don't think it'll happen in the end cause the majority will be against it.
And I'm one of those 10 man raiders who doesn't like 25 man raiding simply because of the amount of people. It's not fun to lead, it's impersonal, and it's a zergfest. And people can be carried. Blech. I could live with 15.

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PostSubject: Re: Warlords of Draenor   Mon Nov 11 2013, 06:02

From a management/GM point of view I can understand this change sucks, but from a regular player POV it really doesn't matter much. Going from 25 to 10 meant 15 people were basically fucked and had to go somewhere else to find a raid spot. The same pretty much happens now, they either stay and wait for 10 more people or join another guild. In the end the result is the same, tons of people will have to look for new guilds and many old guilds will be destroyed. The only difference here is really the management part, recruiting 10 players is of course harder than kicking 15 mediocre ones. But there will be many players looking for mythic guilds so there should be a huge pool to draw from soon.

WotLK was also known for having easy faceroll raids, that also led to an increase in raiders besides being able to do it with 10 people. TBC also had 10 man raids but people didn't bother raiding them that much. Sure, it wasn't the main storyline raid that was a 10 man but still if people are just interested in raiding in general that shouldn't matter. In the end most people in WotLK still raided 25 man because it was more challenging and awarded better gear, pretty much what Mythic will do in WoD. In the end WoW is an MMO and having 3-4 people online in a guild during non-raid times is pretty lame. I think 20 is a really good number, it's purely the fact that they allow 10 man raids now which makes it a shifty change. It's a necessary evil.

They also don't want to do it to end a debate per se. I seriously doubt the debate or world first race is their top concern, since only the elite of the elite care about that crap. They said during the panels that the reason they want to do this is also for a big part because the 10/25 model is holding them back in their options for creating encounters since they can't expect you to have class X in a 10 man raid. And it is pretty true. I mean if you look at Horridon, you get the same amount of priests to interrupt and poison volleys to dispel but you have less than half the players. The same can be said about certain bosses which were just way easier on 10 man. With a uniform raid size they can start to avoid this crap. Also, with limited amounts of healers and tanks, this change will help distribute them among guilds more evenly since the raids are still gonna be 2 tanked and 4 healed.

Paragon is also an exceptional case who cares about the (in my eyes meaningless) world first race. If they can't get a good shot at being 1st, they don't bother at all. In that case, yes, finding 10 players with that mindset is a lot easier than 25. However, if you are willing to take your time to clear content you really just need above average players and not cutting edge players. Finding 20 of those should be possible.

I'm pretty sure that dual raid sizes are gone 100% for sure. With that being said, I also think they will stick to 20 for sure because the main reason is to offer better heroic content which means they need to be able to design encounters around having at least 1 of every class. With 11 classes, even with a 15 man raid you can't really expect that.
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PostSubject: Re: Warlords of Draenor   Tue Nov 12 2013, 04:44

I agree with about everything you say: no bullshit to balance, it's probably a better general number (though I'd prefer 15) etc.
However it's a deterrent simply because it takes so much organisation. So many people raid right now cause there are so many guilds available. The number of raiding guilds will do way more than just halve with this change, which will act as a raiding deterrent. They won't let that happen. Makes more sense to remove 25 man entirely.

I also think it's one of those cases where you cannot undo a previous change (allow 10 man raiding) --> see flying mounts, they've been trying to do that a lot, but it's a very slow process and has less impact than this.

Anyway, we'll see, won't we Smile I'm pretty sure I'm gonna be able to throw in a 'I told you so'.

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